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Dingo
#21 Posted : Monday, January 5, 2015 7:58:06 PM(UTC)
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According to wikipedia the reasons for the PETM are conjectural. They make some evidence based suggestions and never mention runaway anything. Sure warming causes conditions for more warming. That is called feedback. But the long term runaway self promoted condition rather than say physical conditions changing in the earth and ocean being the cause doesn't seem to come up. We'll just have to agree to disagree. As of now I don't buy the runaway thesis. Here's wikipedia on the PETM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...3Eocene_Thermal_Maximum

I still don't get your reliance on a disaster to solve the population problem for more than a short time. If we don't do the right thing it will happen anyway so why promote it? Exponential growth restores the same problem. I'm sticking with experts setting an appropriate population to region level and governments and the public enforcing that level through laws, clinics, peer pressure, education - whatever it takes.
Val
#22 Posted : Tuesday, January 6, 2015 2:01:44 PM(UTC)
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One I missed was http://www.350.org
Do the math. Oh well, it is hard to convince anyone except my late friend Al Bartlett, and others who are up to both population science and AGW science and data.
I guess you and John Taves, and John Talbot Ross, all are in some sort of dreamland where population and emissions reduction can be done in time and enough to prevent the loss of this biosphere. It doesn't matter if it has a 50 million year recovery, or if the runaway goes to atmospheric change, clouds thick and the surface 425*F.
All it takes for population is the data from http://worldometers.info along with real data on vital resource depletion with its regeneration rate, and rates of change in the atmosphere and oceans compared to known events like in the Wunderground PETM data.
A good knowledge of human psychology shows too little too late as a general human characteristic.
Now we know that data changes and things are due, geologically, and with human economics distress. We may be too late or we may have 25 years, but no more. It is a 50/50 chance on the former. Should we put on the brakes now or wait until the cliff is closer?
It is mathematically certain, and has been, that it is too late to prevent the population crash. With nothing done about CAGW, then our own extinction is guaranteed along with just about every other living thing on this planet.
How will the emissions reductions and population reduction be accomplished? Birth control and sterilizations by force will still not stop the crash and emissions overdose. A set of powerful governments in concert could do both, but the latest meeting was still too little too late.
With a Toba type event, only 1/1000th would survive, and they, too, could forget what happened and over-breed again to beyond the new, very low sustainable level. It would take some genetic changes for them to be able to learn from the lessons of the past civilizations, and live sustainably. Over the long term of the glacial epoch, followed by another interglacial with the oceans and soils regenerated, along with the recharge of aquifers, and most pollution gone. Some radiation of waste will still be in the biosphere.
Yes, indeed. It will take a catastrophe of great proportions, to prevent a catastrophe thousands of times worse. I hope it is not nuclear war well beyond NWT, with the biosphere irradiated to death. If somehow the population crashes and the emissions are kept down to 10% of 1998 level, then it will increase in heat for 25 to 40 years then cool off over the next 350 years. That is only if GTE is not initiated, by the reductions coming from now to a big maybe of 25 years, and a better chance if done by 2024 from doing the math at 350.org from several years ago.
Dingo
#23 Posted : Tuesday, January 6, 2015 8:24:14 PM(UTC)
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Val;11015 wrote:

I guess you and John Taves, and John Talbot Ross, all are in some sort of dreamland where population and emissions reduction can be done in time and enough to prevent the loss of this biosphere.

Frankly I don't know and I don't think you do either and your invocation of your mentor is convenient since he's dead.

Quote:
they, too, could forget what happened and over-breed again to beyond the new, very low sustainable level.

At least you get that.

Quote:
Yes, indeed. It will take a catastrophe of great proportions, to prevent a catastrophe thousands of times worse.

Better earlier than later right? Maybe you can get a job that will put you in a position to start a nuclear war and then be a boon to mankind by igniting the whole process.

I'm getting to despair of finding anybody who is serious about the overpopulation problem, who isn't filled with sideshow obsessions.

I guess I'll let the human race take care of the problem through probably its own extinction. Too bad but there simply aren't enough serious players to prevent taking us off the cliff. Take us off the cliff earlier, now that's a great answer.
Val
#24 Posted : Wednesday, January 7, 2015 12:54:47 PM(UTC)
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Jaunty is not dead, he is 82 years old. http://www.angelfire.com/va/jauntyalbatross/
NPG has been serious about overpopulation since its 1973 formation. Back in the days when forced two child max families
would have worked to avoid the crash with the side benefits of lower depletion and pollution to the point where we
would not have passed the natural tipping point for methane turnover (Arctic 5*C warmer, global average +1.8*C).

The reason for the forced earlier crash are multiple; 1) The rates of resource use and their attendant regeneration rates indicate by 2140 all soil and all aquifer water will be depleted, all water will be polluted to toxic, so survival of crash survivors becomes zero.
2) HGHG emissions are leading right to turnover if not stopped by around or before 2030, and to totally stop emissions is probably impossible with human psychology, on average. Thus only a perceived natural event could stop the emissions and hopefully the turnover reaction, with what COULD be called an "EARLY" crash. This would give survivors a chance, eventually. Survival is NOT zero.
3) The human species must speciate into a higher life form that can actually understand and live sustainably in harmony with God's Earth and each other. Otherwise, if the over-breeding tendency, and the stupidity stays, history will tend to repeat itself. Right now there is enough major differences between the highest spectrum of intelligence and the average, to cause speciation if there is no inter-breeding for a minimum 5K years. That is biology, Dingo. Of course, survivors would have to kill off all sub-humans to fortify the new species' niche. Long term selective underground fortresses for the duration of surface events like a 10 to 20 year volcanic winter could work if the group surviving is intelligent, strong, AND moral (but NOT over-tolerant and over-compassionate). Long term sustainable survival of the new 'humans' is then possible.

To me, what is most probable is a long period of crashing with its attendant horrors, along with heat buildup to methane turnover. Turnover keeps on until all carbon sequestered even under 1K of rock. The atmosphere becomes CO2/ water vapor dominant with nitric acid vapor and surface temperature of 425*F by sometime around or after 3000AD.
Everything can change with new sets of data. I do not approve of an attempted limited nuclear war because the danger of irradiating the biosphere to sterility.
If Cascadia initiates the crash, or La Palma or Katla, then, only if in time to stop emissions enough, then humanity probably can not speciate and will survive a suffering of 400 years to getting back to normalized temperatures with the return of the ice age on schedule in 2K years, with initiation by the Yellowstone eruption during the start phase of the ice age cycle. People survive until the next interglacial, and are controlled in numbers by diseases and self predation, along with surface resource depletion.
Perhaps it will become part of their psyche to remember the disaster and learn from it.

People like NPG have done all they can do with education and it had no effect on the trend except in the 1970s USA, which then was superseded by excessive immigration, with the result of even worse gross overpopulation of not just people, but livestock, too. Soil over-use and depletion has been rampant since the world reached max sustainable long term around 1900. Since WWII aquifers have been overdrawn at 100 or more times recharge rates, and that is increasing with the idiotic fracking. Greed is still dominant and so is utter stupidity, and over-breeding like Tribbles. People want to pollute more to up their living standard. Pollution is going up, when it should be going down fast, to prevent GTE.

Nothing any group has done has changed the trajectory toward extinction and biosphere destruction. Our arguments have come up to a brick wall of misunderstanding, stubbornness, lack of funds, and powerful greedy interests. Governments that came together to stop ozone depletion are not doing it this time because of the extreme costs.
Population of humans has passed the point of economic hardships from sheer numbers, even in the once great USA. Those alone COULD also cause the crash.

Will the behind the scenes corporates, who pay for governments and have more influence than the general population even in so-called democracies, stop their greed for the future survival of their own kids? In the middle of sex of the average and lower, they do not think of the future, or even of pregnancy prevention now. TBR is still too high. It is unfortunate that the natural death rate even with TBR 0, is too low to stop emissions enough by itself.

In population science we are also fighting momentum. An unseen by most threat, also unseen with the need for implementation time of at least a decade. I really wish it wasn't too late for sanity to develop!!! That is, in general. We keep trying to get through to stop this mess, because it is the moral and right thing to do. I want my only child to make it, and the future kids who could be. I fight against extinction and biosphere destruction, because it is God's Will to do so.


Val
#25 Posted : Thursday, January 8, 2015 8:43:42 AM(UTC)
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another tidbit from the newest NPG emailing;
" Census estimates our nation's population growth by calculating the following current statistics: one birth every 8 seconds; one death every 12 seconds; and one international immigrant (net) every 33 seconds.

The result is that America adds one person every 16 seconds, or just under 4 people per minute. That's an average of 5,400 new people per day... 162,000 per month... nearly 2 million per year.

Sadly, far too many Americans shirk off these perilous numbers - and actually cheer on U.S. population growth. For decades, well into the 20th century, an ever-rising population was looked at as a symbol of America's strength. Unfortunately, when our nation rapidly grew past 150 million people around 1950, we left the concept of a sustainable America behind. We're now well beyond the tipping point. More and more people only mean more social, economic and environmental problems for our nation."

I think the concept of a sustainable America and Earth got going on Earth Day 1. The 70s, without immigration the American TBR got down to 1.6 in 30 years. China's got there and no lower after their 1979 forced one child family turned to two for farmers, and they got to a low of 1.6 TBR in 1986. Now they have started allowing others to two if they apply.
European countries got down to below replacement also. Unfortunately they had adopted a US-like 'growth only' economy, and now are inundated with TBR 9 in 30 yrs. moslems to make up for this, like the US with Mexicans. It sure helps those who like to conquer democracies by the expedient of mere overbreeding. Easy for the macho men, not easy for the women!
Trying to get them to stop is like trying to herd cats. Cats that turn big and eat you.
Dingo
#26 Posted : Monday, January 12, 2015 2:56:53 AM(UTC)
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As for your mentor Val I was talking about Al Bartlet who made perfectly sensible points and I doubt spent his time writing off the human race with guaranteed disaster scenarios. If a disaster happens it happens but I don't see any point wishing for it nor do I think Al Bartlet would. If the population levels out at say 10 billion by 2100, a common projection from present population trends, maybe things will work out. I doubt it but neither you or I or anybody else KNOWS what the future holds. My point is why play Russian Roulette with further population expansion and recognize that nearly every human problem has overpopulation as an important component. Once that is understood then serious solutions would or at least could follow.

Positing some sort of underground master race as a solution seems absurd. Frankly if I was a magician and could solve the population with one stroke I would probably give everyone a good case of downs syndrome. Don't notice those folks over proliferating. And as for your racial-religious problems, who were the principal proliferators all over the planet for 400 year after Columbus made his fateful voyage? The European Christians maybe? Your blame game really doesn't work and like your disaster obsession is just one more distraction in dealing with the real problem of overpopulation. We need to get some education out there, make the appropriate rules for everybody. Nobody gets written off.
Val
#27 Posted : Monday, January 12, 2015 10:30:49 AM(UTC)
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Al Bartlett knew of HGHG pollution's ruin of at least the food supply. Remember, he was in "Blind Spot". It is hard to believe it has been over 6 years since that documentary. Before there was one in 1994 called "WWIII: Overpopulation and the Biosphere" from Oregon Public Television.
500 years ago the Spanish were in their greed driven conquest of much of the Americas. 800 years ago Basque fishermen landed in N. America for mast material. 1000 years ago my Viking ancestors settled in N. America, then were absorbed by the Ojibwa tribe. 1300 years ago some Pacific , former Aborigine, people made it to W. S. Am. and possibly as long as 50K yrs. ago but disputed. 1600 years ago Chinese seaworthy junks made it to S. America, with no settlement and even forbidding the news by the Emperor. 2000+ years ago or so and Mediterranean fishermen and explorers were probably visiting the Caribbean.
had to do with ocean currents, and those adrift at sea and making it to shore after weeks of survival or more. Never enough to get into samples of genes. 5K years ago the Eskimos and Aleuts arrived from Siberia. 8K yrs. ago the Apache/Navajo came plundering from Mongolia/Siberia. 12 K yrs. ago Eastern tribes came from Siberia, 15K yrs. ago more Mongolian types made it island hopping across the N. Pacific and had made it to the S. tip of S. Am. by 12.6 K yrs. ago, mainly coastal villages now underwater. The same with those who did the same 23K yrs ago, but across the N. Atlantic and more iceberg hopping than islands, from France and Spain. South and inland in groups fighting each other for the new territory, genocides of various tribes.
With predators both human and animal, high mortality and lower life expectancy, both N. and S. America were at, or above long term sustainable. Europe was well above long term sustainable making people want to leave for one reason or another basically all back to overpopulation. India and China went through overpopulation and famine throughout their histories with wars also helping in the repeated holocausts. Australia and many Pacific Islands were at sustainable or higher, as per similar debacles to Easter Island.
In the "European Conquest" of 1500 to 1900, .6M Africans were brought to the US alone as slaves. There were white slaves also.
The blacks are now at 40+ M. Africa surely had its share of the same tribal warfare including genocide.
When I think of it, the whole species is messed up in too many ways. Horrible people seem to dominate, and continue the planetary rape and gross overpopulation. The sign of a species going extinct, and taking most other life with us. I am ashamed to be human sometimes.
Posting about speciation is a very advanced biology subject that many do not grasp well. The big 'if' is people of the future.
gmiklashek950
#28 Posted : Thursday, July 23, 2015 1:13:54 AM(UTC)
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What a wonderful discussion! I am a retired neuropsychiatrist, who has written an essay that's morphed (uncontrolled growth??) into a 341pg. monograph, "STRESS R US", available for free download on the MAHB website, in the MAHB Library. Coming from a medical perspective, I was looking for root causes of disease and kept discovering the same cause: an over-active stress response, high Cortisol levels, and eventually failed Adrenal Glands--death. James Wilson's little self-help book "Adrenal Fatigue" became a major tool for my patients, who were increasingly suffering from this epidemic disorder--still largely unknown to the medical profession. In the process of researching and writing the book, I realized that Mother Nature had actually created a human population regulation mechanism with the over-active stress response. Eureka. A fairly thorough search of the long established animal population pressure ("crowding") literature has revealed the same mechanism limiting crowded mammalian populations. The symptoms of stress have been described by American physicians for over 150yrs. but forgotten in the frenzy for all things Freudian in the early 20th century. Check out the little books written by George Miller Beard, MD, and Silas Weir Mitchell, on "Neurasthenia", "Nervous Exhaustion", and "Wear and Tear". Hans Selye described "stress" in his wonderful 1950 book by that name but never followed up on his observation that high levels of stress hormones reduced reproductive activity.

My contention, to get to the point, is that our over-active stress response, causing "anxiety", depression, and nearly all of our medical illnesses, including all of our infertility problems, is in fact a population limiting mechanism at work--attempting to re-fit our surviving numbers back into the greater ecosystem, if you'll allow a teleological interpretation. Our Hunter-Gatherer ancestors, for about 60K yrs., never exceeded 10M, whereas we are now 7,300M. You do the math. We are 730 times more than the Earth could support during our ecologically limited ancestral 60K yrs., stable from the time of the nuclear winter caused by the eruption of Mt. Toba 73,500 yrs. ago, when we were nearly driven to extinction.

I would love to hear what you good folks might think of my work, as I cannot find a single physician willing to weigh-in. Psychiatrists have become little more than drug company vending machines and have no interest in my work. What do you think? Please share your thoughts. Your colleague, Gregg (gmiklashek950)
Val
#29 Posted : Saturday, July 25, 2015 6:21:30 AM(UTC)
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Welcome, doctor! Years ago I heard of the "Human Overcrowding Syndrome" characterized by increased anxiety, depression, and hostility. Some, who had spent years overcrowded developed the negative genetic trait of crowd tolerance. The natural instinct was to explore and conquer, with only the strongest and smartest living to choose a reproductive partner.
It could be called a form of stress, but it has had no large effect on the population stimulated growth. In other words, it is NOT self limiting, except by mass die off. The question this time is tripping the methane turnover natural response to HGHGs.
Instead of die off from lack of food, it is joined by depletion of water and soil, and CAGW effects. The tipping point for methane turnover may be passed, or in momentum, for sure without 95% HGHG reductions within 8 years. By 2040 or before, the population of humans will crash from economic effects of overpopulation, ruined dollar, Cascadia, La Palma, or Katla, and the CAGW crop loss effects. In America the Ogallala Aquifer will be gone with several others. People kill for water.
A nuclear winter could be induced, but Yellowstone is 2K years off and too late to stop thermal max and global terminal extinction events. Attempting to blow it or Toba's magma chamber would face insurmountable drilling challenges. Katla could give a single volcanic winter and crash the human population seeing there are only a couple months of food supply world wide. If it happens real soon, that would help nearly stop emissions. Same with the collapse caused by either the Cascadia disaster or the La Palma slide tsunami disaster. They are all due, geologically.
In the meantime, human misery increases with drought, floods, heatwaves, over-used infrastructural systems with lack of maintenance, and continued stretching of food with added sugars and chemicals along with GMO and the attendant problems of that and water pollution by industrial chemicals and excrement. We would have to globally plant seven trillion trees per year to absorb all the human CO2. Human stubbornness and inertia to change with changing conditions, along with the fact that humanity in general is too dumb to see it coming, understand it, and go to green living from the cities that are unsustainable monsters to the country, also over crowded. Logistic nightmare.
We also know how humans behave in desperate situations----cannibalism and often other crimes and violence. They may call it political or religious strife, when overpopulation is at the root of it, and has been for a hundred years of growing worse with the quasi-exponential rise to die-off. We are on the stimulated mammalian population crash curve, just like the rabbit/fox studies, St. Matthew reindeer herd, Kaibob deer debacle, mice and rat experiments, and farm and lab other mammal species. In your life we have not gone off of this crash curve. There was hope of humanity automatically choosing wisely with thought to future generations and lowering birth rate enough and in time. Time mathematically passed for even a moratorium on having children worldwide for a near generation.
Catastrophe of several kinds is guaranteed to drop the human population massively, it is just a matter of when. Within 8 years means nearly a billion dead per year, or it will not stop thermageddon. The natural crash of 2040-60 would be over 400M dead per year, and too late to stop methane turnover.
It is a real multi-disciplinary thing to understand and calculate properly. The more and more recent data the better, and the more scientific disciplines the better. It is a mystery just what will happen, but without the due disasters happening in time, the main crash will be too late to stop the probable loss of the planetary biosphere and all species, and most evidence of life in the several thousand years methane turnover takes to boil off the oceans, burn the surface and form the thick cloud cover, like a cooler Venus. We will not know unless from Heaven. It is possible, in my mind, for God to intervene and save life on Earth. Otherwise His Laws of Nature will prevail, and a worse than Permian ELE, at the very least.
Survival by travel to another planet is very 'iffy'. The g force of enough acceleration to meaningful velocity would turn humans to jelly. No shields against high speed collision with particles of rocks and larger. Generational ships, good luck.
gmiklashek950
#30 Posted : Saturday, July 25, 2015 7:21:42 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for that, Val! My contention is that we are mid-catastrophe now, with our over-active but mostly silent stress responses underlying nearly all the diseases that would, if left untreated, be drastically lowering our numbers for some time now. In the exploding psychiatric populations I treated for 40 years, anxiety and depression were the obvious results, although I speculate in my book that schizophrenia and the autism spectrum disorders are possibly caused by high Cortisol levels in the stressed mother's womb. Your very well thought out doomsday scenarios appear highly accurate to me but I'm just suggesting that you consider adding one more to the mix, to increase the urgency of the message. Thanks for your work and reply, Gregg
Dingo
#31 Posted : Saturday, July 25, 2015 5:57:56 PM(UTC)
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I do recall reading parts of Hans Selye's 'Stress of Life' a good while ago. It certainly expanded my vision of how the body operates in responding to a variety of health challenges, with much of the response whether it be a scary experience, a disease or a physical wound being generic in nature. I doubt lack of fertility would be an important response to stress as women get pregnant from being raped which has to be high in the stress category. One would think hunger might be an inhibiting factor due to the lowered chance of survival of both the mother and the child but judging from 3rd world statistics that doesn't seem to be the case. Sadly the resulting physically and mentally stunted children, not to mention abuse driven neurosis, don't get a fair shot at life and the consequences inevitably tie up a lot of social resources.

My focus on both mental health and population control is to strengthen community, in many ways modeled after successful communities of the past. I think these folks had much more sensitivity to the condition of its members and their balance with the resources and living species around them and were able to adapt fairly successfully. I think it is interesting that the Europeans came to America and found it to be in their eyes a pristine and abundant wilderness despite the fact that in its own way it had been occupied for at least 10,000 years and been totally utilized by its inhabitants. The Europeans used to say when they first came that you could walk across streams on the backs of migrating salmon they were so numerous - amazing! The Native Americans had lots to teach us about sustainability. Too bad we missed our chance.
gmiklashek950
#32 Posted : Sunday, July 26, 2015 6:30:44 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for that, Dingo! We are thinking along very similar lines, as are many other serious folks at this time in history. My book, "STRESS R US", presents a great deal of otherwise lost-in-time historical research on population density pathology, as well as human medical research, also, ignored by the academic medical world. Hans Selye, one of my heroes and fellow Austro-Hungarian descendant, experimented on animals and used extreme physical stressors--torture actually. As I point out in the book, he mentioned the effect of stress reducing the reproductive drive only once in his 1025pg. magnum opus, "STRESS", in 1950. Ask any female athlete and she will tell you that she has stopped menstruating or that her hormonal cycle is greatly disrupted, a known gynecological fact. Consider the explosion of human infertility problems and an entire medical industry of artificial insemination that has sprung up recently. I know of no accurate statistics from war-torn battlegrounds around the world on this subject. Another of my heroes, John B. Calhoun, studied crowded rats and mice in the 1940's and 1950's and his findings are summarized in the book. In many animal populations, if similarly crowded, successful reproduction eventually ceases, resulting in a near total die-off. My researches strongly suggest that we are headed for the same fate, if we do not consciously set about to decrease our numbers.

You, thoughtfully, call attention to our Native American predecessors here in the Americas and their life-ways. They numbered a fairly steady 3 million within the borders of the continental US prior to the uninvited arrival of our European and African ancestors. The steady-state human population on Earth of Hunter-Gatherer ancestors was below 10 million world-wide. These were long-standing, sustainable human populations, unlike our own swollen numbers, let alone future predictions of even greater numbers of humans competing world-wide for rapidly dwindling natural resources. All of the Native Americans living east of the Mississippi River, as described in the historical records of the first Spanish explorers, lived in communal dwellings, "Longhouses", some as long as 400ft., containing multiple interconnected family sub-units, shared cooking fires, and a central hallway. Compare that lifeway to our isolated suburban single family home or urban apartment, and then consider the psychological impact of these two very different life-styles. Much of our psychopathology is a direct result of our isolated life-ways, which increases our stress hormone levels. However, the communal lifeway kept our ancestor's in a more natural, cyclical balance. Hunter-Gatherer peoples , when their remains are studied by physical anthropologists, are found to be, on average, far healthier than the sedentary agriculturists who supplanted them all over Europe and the Middle East. We modern people have much to learn from our Native American and Indigenous populations all over the planet following the "Agricultural Revolution". All of this material is discussed in "STRESS R US", available for free viewing and download from the web. Just Google "Stress R Us", and enter the title into the MAHB Library search window in the upper right-hand corner of your screen. Thanks for your well considered and impassioned reply. We are thinking along very similar lines in the face of a common problem, human overpopulation and the resultant exhaustion of Earth's natural resources. Best wishes, Gregg
Val
#34 Posted : Wednesday, July 29, 2015 1:38:26 PM(UTC)
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Sorry I haven't been back, Greg, and Dingo. I am glad you wrote the book, Greg. In our long term avoidance of overpopulation, many have also avoided the human overcrowding syndrome. I really find it disappointing that so few correlate overpopulation to be the root cause of depletion, pollution, and increasing psychiatric disorders. 20 years ago when I studied it, the increase was 700% per capita from WWII, when I think stress would have been high. It all ties together. When my son was young, we got breeding feeder mice in an 18x30x16 high habitat. They ended up cannibalizing each other like the 1980 Andes crash survivors. I had thought they were strict vegetarians! Let them go to mix with the locals. You see comments over the years from old timers saying people are not as friendly as they used to be. Then all sorts or weird stuff, conflicts, bomb trains, suicide bombers, and think of the past with water wars. "The Coming Chaos" by Goodchild was supposed to have included it. Overcrowding makes people crazy. Part of it is the effects of chemical pollutants in water, air, and food. The acceptance of chemicals and GMOs in the food supply, and their long term relatively unknown effects, but probable hormone disruptors, which can also trigger psychotic episodes. Too much sugar and lack of B vitamins. I had studied the effects of mono-diets with anti-B vitamins in corn on learning. The fact is that the lowest spectrum of IQ have been outbreeding those of 100 and up since way into last century. Malnutrition plays a big part. It will also happen as the population collapses in 30 years.
I thought there were a lot more "Indians" than 3 million in the US when the Pilgrims landed. They were at a long term sustainable population from continual warfare and privation every winter, and didn't have horses because, like humans, they were not native to the Americas. The long house was probably from the occasional stranded fishermen from Europe and Asia, caught on the currents across the oceans, or the Viking s had long houses and mixed with the Chippewa circa 1003AD in N. America. Other small groups came from various parts of Europe to stop for mast timber, or explore, who left little record. Only in the Chippewa is the genetic evidence still readable of mixing with the Vikings. I read of another white tribe that came across the Bering land bridge 9K yrs. ago, but were massacred in WA. The first race war in America, but you know, they liked to fight, and it helped keep their numbers down. Real predators had their share, too. It kept them strong, and the wisest had them move camp to stay sustainable. They were wise enough to know better than to burn the black goo from the ground.
gmiklashek950
#35 Posted : Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:44:54 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for that, Val. I was born in Topeka in 1945, just weeks after the first A-bombs were exploded over Japan. With your interest in Vikings you might like you might like to know that one of my Michigan patients told me a story of visiting a relative in central Kansas some years back and, while cleaning out the garage, found what appeared to be the remains of a Viking shield and some other deteriorated paraphernalia. When he brought this to the attention of his relative, she directed him to the remains of a Longboat rotting in the creek bed behind her home. He seemed quite serious when he related this story and knew of my interest in early Americana. Scandinavian genes have been identified lately in Native Americans of Algonquin heritage, and I am a believer in a European migration around the lowered North Atlantic rim at the end of the last Ice Age. Perhaps you're familiar with the book on the subject, "Atlantic Crossing" by a fellow at the Smithsonian. You might enjoy viewing my collection of North European Upper Palaeolithic artifacts online at my website: gravettianvenusfigurines.com. I have donated most of that material to a local college anthropology museum. The Mammoth ivory spearthrower was AMS 14C dated at Univ. of Ill. at 15,000 yBP. Those folks were moving north, following the hunt to the grasslands feeding vast migratory herds of Reindeer and other ungulates east and west along the southern border of the retreating Weichselian lobe of the Finno-scandian glacier. They are listed in the collection notes of the collector, from whose estate I purchased them, as having been discovered in a railway cut construction outside Berlin. As for Longhouses, I once had an entire library dedicated to Native American history, about 1,500 volumes. All of the mostly sedentary base settlements of pre-Columbian Native Americans east of the Mississippi were made up of a collection of clan Longhouses, the longest reported in Mississippi by the first Spanish explorers as up to 400' long and containing a repeating pattern of four families to a cooking fire, assembled along a central hallway running the length of the building. None of them lived the isolated, highly mobile, mostly urban and suburban, single-family home-lives that we do. Thanks for your encouragement regarding the book and I hope you find the time and energy to read it and send me your comments on the contents. It will certainly need further editing but I'll leave that to an interested publisher, if one ever appears. Enjoy your summer, Gregg
Val
#36 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2015 9:37:03 AM(UTC)
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Happy summer to you, too, sir. Perhaps I have read an article by you, or more.
The Solutrian seal boat band moving around the N Atl ice floes to N Am 23-25K yBP.
Plus, possible SE Asian to S Am up to 50K yBP. Then the pre-land bridge seal boats from NE Asia island to island 16K yBP. Not just C 14 but arrow blade structure.
Then the other probable marooned sailors from The Med and elsewhere with the return Gulf Stream, and the SE Asia to Ecuador area.
I googled Stress R Us. If you include the human over-crowding syndrome hormone disruption, and its driving migration, exploration, and warfare. There used to be enough predation, with self predation, diseases, and starvation.
Even with lowering fertility of over-crowding, the incredible amount of sperm and eggs are still available. Plus, people have developed the negative eco trait of crowd tolerance. This is genetically transferred now, to a certain extent, plus conditioning and herding. I'd swear some people are about like cows.
Dingo
#33 Posted : Monday, August 3, 2015 3:10:44 PM(UTC)
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gmiklashek950;11050 wrote:
Much of our psychopathology is a direct result of our isolated life-ways, which increases our stress hormone levels.

Gregg, I would like to make a distinction here. I see a difference between alienated and isolated which may or may not be alienating. I experienced an extreme example of at least human isolation - 130 days alone at sea. It was for the most part not a problem and after the first two weeks I gave up feeling lonely. I know of others who have also experienced long periods like this, particularly at sea and if the conditions are right they adapt quite nicely. Alienation comes from being estranged from the people and environment around you. No people, no estrangement particularly when you throw in a satisfying environment. I know this goes against the general view that we are inherently social creatures. I'm inclined to think we are adaptive creatures with a larger set of adaptive possibilities than we may realize as long as we have a place to land where we aren't overly threatened.

Perhaps part of the reason overpopulation as a problem rings true to me is a wish for association to be more voluntary and not pushed down my throat. When you can come and go that's great but when you can't go, that's stress.
gmiklashek950
#37 Posted : Monday, August 3, 2015 3:40:47 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for that, Dingo. I'm an old sailor, have made many Great Lakes voyages alone, and one month-long honeymoon trip into the northern Bahamas, but never for the long period you describe, and always within a day of land. Now I make land voyages in my 20yo VW Camper. I appreciate your contention but suspect that isolation is very different for most men than for most women. I also doubt that any woman would choose "Dingo" for an online handle! :)) I, also, like the distinction you made between isolation in a natural setting and "alienation". The book addresses our alienation from Nature, disrupting influence on the natural order (ecological impact), disruption of the clan social group we evolved in, and the stress inducing effect this has. I'm enjoying the dialog with you folks. Just reading a book, "Is the American Dream Killing You?", by Paul Stiles, a retired NSA and Wall Street employee, that focuses on the destructive effects of the unbridled "free market", as opposed to the spiritual side of life. It parallels much of what I'm saying, particularly in the chapter on "Burnout". Sadly, he's all but disappeared since this book was published in 2005. Take care and sail on! Gregg
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